talula

Did you not see in the comments in my post that the place is willing to offer mens lessons if they get enough men interested in doing a class.

Does there need to be an equivalent? seriously, if one person wants to do something for themselves and their partner, does the other half have to as well?

hardly seems like something does as a gift for the other person if its done with an expectation of equal reciprocity. that kind of thinking to me implies the first act is only done to get something back in return.

i also noticed your topic title was sexism and exercise. where is the sexism?

Alan

Giffy: No, apparently I missed that...

Alan said: "if one person wants to do something for themselves and their partner, does the other half have to as well?"

No, and the expectation of reciprocation from one partner to another isn't what I was trying to get at.

What I mean is that there needs to be an equivalent of some sort so that if a partner wants to reciprocate they can.

To put it another way: if a woman gave a man a box of chocolates, there is no barrier to him going out and buying her something similar another time, should he feel like it.

In this case the sexism comes in because there's this whole 'genre' of classes taught, and DVDs available like Claudia Schiffer's Fit to Strip that are aimed primarily or exclusively at women so there appears to be no expectation that men can or should do anything along the same lines (i.e. learn to be more sexually appealing for your partner.)

I hope I'm making this clear now. Maybe I should add all this in to the main body of the text...

DO you have any problems with belly dancing? Similar sort of thing really.

Belly dancing has a long, rich, cultural history and is performed by men as well as women in the middle east. I feel very differently about it for those reasons, even though it is primarily performed by women in the Western world.

I don't want to stop anyone doing pole dancing, an important part of feminism to me is defending a woman's right to choose to do what she wants, be it abortion, wearing a burqa or dancing for money.

I'm just trying to explain why I feel weird about pole dancing.

I can't remember specifics, but there was usually something to that effect in most of the issues of FHM/Ralph/Playboy etc that I've read. Tended to be more general though, food and grooming and arranging an entire evening of "stuff-women-like" rather than an actual action like stripping... I think the theory being that women are thought of as being a bit more complicated than men in the seduction department.

I don't know that I'd agree with that :).

Oh, maybe I would. Mood, energy etc are always bigger issues for me than the lad, and it can take a bit more than just nudie bits to get my attention :).

I'm pretty hazy on the magazine stuff as it's been a good couple of years since I read anything like that in any detail. But I do remember a very strong appealling-to-women focus in a lot of the articles. Presumably, because guys want to get laid just as much as girls :).

In the interests of satisfying curiosity I tried a few different google searches to see if I could find anything on stripping lessons for men - nah. At least, not with any straightforward searches. I guess because there are fewer large-scale male stripping ventures than female that could put on lessons? Also, presumably less demand from men for celebrity-trend-things, or random fitness fads?

In my googling I came across a comment on a forum where a woman mentioned talking about the stripping-for-fitness fad with some of her stripping and sex-working friends, and the opinions seemed to be leaning toward the idea that it was a fun flirtation for people, getting to feel a bit naughty and a bit sexy and strippery without having to deal with any of the actual issues one would come across doing it as a career. The tone was indulgent frustration, I think :).

I suspect some sort of class on doing the unexpected is the male equivalent of Pole Dancing.

A class on spontnarous gestures of affection.

How about these classes (actually porobably good for both sexes):
How To:
- Get fit, tanned and do all the house work and handyman type jobs...Topless.
- Undress yourself and partner without tripping over your own undies and smacking them in the face with a sock (unless you like that kind of thing).
- Give a decent/sensual full body massage. I think a lot of people are only good at one area ie, head or shoulders or foot.
- Budget your money so that she can spend it.
- Make home made chocolate body paint and techniques of application.

See i think there are different types of expectations, while there might be all manner of types of dance type things for women, probably becuase a) women can usually dance better, and b) it appeals to women to do, and appeals to men to watch, there are other things as well.

for example, theres not much reciprocation expected wwith a guy spending truck loads of dosh on jewellery or lingerie (though thats more grey, as its seen as a mutual benefit, but the point about buying it stands), for any important date that comes up, eg valentines, mothers day, birthday, christmas, anniversary. conversley, not so much. maybe buying some socks, but nothing on the price scale.

is it sexist that men are supposed to spend thousands of dollars on an engagement ring, but its not even assumed a guy will even get one at all?

my point is that rather than covering the whole of society, its best to look at individual couples and what fits them, some couples one, both or neitehr will be into pole dancing, other couples the same for jewellery, lingerie, porn, renovations as gifts (building things for the coupple is pretty much the man equivalent of pole dancing, not really a female equivalent)

in summary, maybe one item is onesided, but across everyone, and everyones likes and prefernces it will balance out.

AL

Well, speaking as a terminal singleton and someone who likes dancing in its various forms, I mainly want to do it because it's something outside of my normal sphere of dancing experiences and should be a fun thing to do with some of my friends, not something I'm doing to appeal to a partner (obviously). I don't see why it has to be a directed sexuality thing.

Cynthia Heimel used to write about how men have auxiliary sex organs in their eyes and women do not. If there's any truth in that, there may be no male equivalent to pole dancing.

I don't really think that pole fitness is done for a partner or to titilate males given that partners or men in general aren't allowed to come along and watch. It just another form exercise/dancing. Unless you have a pole at home, it is hard to see how the dance skills would be used as a sexy performance for your partner.

I think the current trend of strippery type exercise (striptease exercise videos and pole fitness etc) is actually part of a current trend where it is cool to be a little bit naughty. The Playboy logo has become extremely popular (especially among young teenagers) but I don't think it is because 13 year girls want to be viewed as sex objects. It is more just that it is trendy to be a little bit bad. There have been previous fashions (punk, grunge, hip hop etc) that take off because a lot of people find appeal in a trend that rebels against conventional good-girl appearance. Playboy fashions and strippery type exercise trends are a similar kind of thing - they are perceived as fun because they are not the goody-goody kind of thing. Most females have an inner bad girl (however small) and this is one way to embrace it.

I think it is done largely because it is what the female wants to do for herself (not primarily for the gratification of males). If it does make a woman feel more sexually attractive or sensual as well, then all the better. The world would be a better place if more women loved their own sexy bodies.

I do still at times find it personally upsets me to see young girls wearing Playboy or T-shirts with overly sexual slogans on the front. I still find that the majority of porn is overwhelming sexist and generally is exploiting and using females for the gratification of males. However, maybe this new trend is a sign that this may start changing and we may get to a place in society where everyone can feel sexy about themselves, enjoy oggling people they find attractive and watching erotic dances/porn/whatever of every gender and sexual orientation without it being about one gender exploiting or demeaning the other.

Maybe pole fitness is actually empowering? An activity that used to be about scantily clad women dancing just for men could be taken back and made about women dancing for their own enjoyment?

I think a lot of men never read fiction or watch films outside of the 'action and/or porn' genre and thus their idea of romance is often either 'treat women badly' or 'food on the table and petrol in the car is romantic'.

I personally feel that the old, old tribal and cultural tradition from all over the world is a good one: i.e. young men are educated sexually by a mature woman before they have relations with young women. And I don't mean, take a guy out on bucks' night and get hire him a hooker, I mean an actual relationship over a period of time with all parties fully aware of what's going on.

I really do believe that it would go far in the education of young men and result in better relationships for them and their later partners.

I personally find pole dancing incredibly sexy (by women) but it has to be done *well* or else it just seems embarrassing for all concerned.

I'm probably going to do a post on this topic on my LJ someday, but I'll mention something directly here - you're missing a very notable male-equivalent of "pole-dancing-for-exercise."

Pro-wrestling. Especially as done at the amateur, no-money-involved, performing-in-cold-dark-sheds way that's done in NZ and at low levels all over the world.

This is a bunch of (mostly) guys, who want to get and stay fit and keep a good physique, and do that to perform in a frankly (homo)-erotic performance-art / stunt show.

And it's just as much "we're doing it to be sexy" as the pole-dancing is for women.

And, like the pole-dancing for exercise concept, it's still mostly done in front of other men, rather than the women they want to be sexy for.

I think there's a strong parallel...

>I think a lot of men never read fiction or watch films outside of the 'action and/or porn' genre and thus their idea of romance is often either 'treat women badly' or 'food on the table and petrol in the car is romantic'.
>

I probably have not read anything more sexist and rediculous in a long while. i mean if you have any actual proof of tihis by all means table it, but as reaching comments goes, thats one of the reachiest.

If i gender flipped that comment, you would be incensed and call sexist doggerel, and you would be right, just like your version is.

Based entirely on males of my aquaintance. You're right, it is sexist and stereotypical. But it is also my experience of men, so it is valid.

Stereotypes usually occur because they fit the personal experiences/perceptions of the many. But of course they are not PC and neither do they cover every individual.

There are no doubt many guys who read 'emotional' fiction and there are many guys who watch 'emotional' movies - but then again, how many people get upset when a movie is described as a "chick flick" or a power-tool sale is billed as "big boys' toys"?

I've had many male friends and boyfriends tell me exactly what I wrote up there - that their idea of being romantic is being a provider/protector.

In a way, it would be more "ridiculous" for me to talk about studies and statistics done by someone else - at least I am talking entirely from my own experience, not just regurgitating what I've been told by "experts".

Besides, life *is* sexist. Get over it.

"Stereotypes usually occur because they fit the personal experiences/perceptions of the many."

What, you mean like how Chinese people have buck teeth and wear glasses?

Stereotypes can have an element of truth to them, but they are also often exaggerated by prejudice and/or ignorance.

"But of course they are not PC and neither do they cover every individual."

In some cases they only cover a minority of the individuals group they are trying to describe. E.g. "Maoris are lazy" or "Sweden is full of beautiful blondes" or whatever.

"In a way, it would be more "ridiculous" for me to talk about studies and statistics done by someone else - at least I am talking entirely from my own experience, not just regurgitating what I've been told by "experts"."

In another way, what you've said is sort of like saying "Hungarians have moustaches, because the one I met had one."

Is there any particular reason why you'd assume that the men of your personal acquaintance are a representative sample?

"Based entirely on males of my aquaintance. You're right, it is sexist and stereotypical. But it is also my experience of men, so it is valid. "

Then I'd suggest you widen your experience, rather than extrapolate to a population from such an unrepresentative sample.

Because, at the moment, what that "a lot of men never read fiction or watch films outside of the 'action and/or porn' genre" comment has managed to achieve is nothing more than offending a couple of pretty nice and decent fellows.

aww, me sorry.

Seriously, I don't mean everything I say/write to be taken seriously! If you knew me in person you'd realise that most of the time my tongue is firmly in cheek.

Don't get offended by morons on the net, guys. I'm just too numerous (I'd hate to offend you more by suggesting that anyone on the internet is a moron but me, of course)

... for example my brother reads widely (although almost all non-fiction, which was the point I was really thinking of at the time) and watches few movies (although he does favour the action genre) and he's very "classically romantic" with his girlfriends. So there you go, a male of my aquaintance that is a lovely guy.

And you can be a lovely guy without being classically romantic, btw, and without reading or watching *anything*.

I was just thinking a little about where our dominant social ideas of "romance" are picked up from and reinforced.

I would love to widen my aquaintance of lovely men but I tend to find advertising in the personals gives people the wrong idea, somehow ;)

I wasn't offended, btw. I just have a thing about stereotyping.