beautiful monsters

Fi, this is a fantastic description of the day. I'm going to tell everyone I know to visit.

The wierdest part of it for me was a very strange musical experience I had. When the Destiny people arrived on Parliament grounds, we were all doing our funky little 'Hey ho, hey ho, homophobia's got to go!' chanting. We had a nice rhythm going on, if I don't say so m'self. Then they started with their 'Enough is enough! Enough is enough!' thing. And for a short while, the two of them blended into this bizarre syncopation, and we were almost friggin' singing and dancing with each other.... Honestly, I wasn't the only one who noticed it. It was impossible to ignore each other's rhythm and volume, I guess, and it ended up sounding like they were making the beats for us to rhyme over... ?? Go FIGURE.

I found the blank looks (well, blank when they weren't doing pukana at us) on the faces of the Destiny people really bizarre, too. The ones I did talk to seemed really surprised I could talk at all ... I was flesh and blood, as it were, not a scarey figment. But it makes it all the more terrifying for me, that feeling of being amongst really angry people brainwashed out of thinking. Just turn up - someone else will tell you what to wear, what to say, what your banner should say, what your prayer will be.

I hope some of the Destiny people felt our humanity yesterday. I hope they take away with them the realisation that we ARE ALL THE SAME underneath it all. And while Brian (who's really just a very, very naughty boy...gotta love Python) might say he doesn't 'hate the sinner', their actions sanction hate crimes all around the country. More than one of my friends was abused and spat at just walking to the march. I worry for our young, bullied and assaulted in schools, murdered. I worry for the suicide rate amongst our queer rangatahi. PLEASE, I would say to Destiny, please stop what you are doing. It could, literally, kill us. How is that love? How is that God?

Thanks for your (as usual) succinct and incisive korero about the whole thing Fi. The photos, too. - you are a treasure. Rock on.

xx
Hinemoana

Hey Fi, thanks for the write up and the excellent photos. Kia kaha.

"I really wish there had been a strong Maori response."

Yeah, I thought it would've been really nice if we'd had a waiata prepared to answer that. Ah well.

Hey, great writeup and pix. After reading much of what went on I have several questions:

People have said that Destiny's message was based on hatred. Does that mean those opposed to Tamaki's message have to be equally as hateful and to equate Brian Tamaki with Hitler? And having comments such as " Hitler called, he wants a shirt"

I am not coming out in support of Destiny, I am merely observing what went on and noticing how sad it is that the church has been so divided when what is really needed is unity.

I thought Margaret made a good speech, but this march has done absolutely nothing for unity and progress in our society. Both supporters and opponents have contributed to this disunity.

Hi,

Beautiful photos!

I'm going to have to agree with Dave. I think it's really important that we hold ourselves to the same standards as we do them.

I'm appalled that you were spat at and called names. That is unmistakeable hatred, no question. I think that makes it clear that while they tried to give an appearance of uniformity, there is a spectrum within their camp, as in any other group. Don't lump them altogether and assume that they are part of one brain. Brian Tamaki is trying to give that impression, but it's not true.

My favourite banner was 'mean people suck'.

Fionnaigh, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to see you. At a certain point I got too upset and had to escape back to work.

Well done on an excellent description of the day, and on your courage to stand up against the spreaders of hate.

i too visited for a short time, but my distress was too overwhelming and i returned to work, hoping it and the black shirted ones would just go away.

it was a weird day in wellington, eerie and quiet for most of it. i think most of us were just too shocked at what we saw.

Yup. Did anyone else find it hard to sleep last night?

I'm a man in a classic "Man, woman, child" family relationship. Straight as a rod.
I never thought I would use this trite cliche, but
"YOU GO GIRL!"

Great description of the demo and great pix too!

We were talking over lunch about Tamaki's descritpion of marriage depending on the ability to procriate... Does that mean he would not be against a relationship between one man and two women or two men and one woman? As long as they can make babies??

and what about the technology that would allow tow women to produce a fertile egg together...

I wish some people were not under the illusion that at some point in the past, everthing was wonderful. For most of the past, life was nasty, brutish, and short. Let's leave the past where it belongs... in the past.

Once again... Nice post.

Craig

Hi,

Thanks for the interview yesterday. SNAP! should be out on Friday if you want to check it out. Cool to see you have a blog, came through here from Hard News.

BTW, if you would like to post your article on www.indymedia.org.nz as well that would be REALLY cool!

Cheers,

John Anderson

Interesting - I didn't get spat at, or even much abuse. I guess Tamaki's blackshirts have different responses to small women vs men that dwarf most of them.

I believe we can add "bullies" to the list of attributes.

Loved your banner, I fear the humour may have been lost on some who attended...

Kia ora again...Sorry to hear that some of us can't see why others of us support the Nazi analogy. My partner is Jewish - it's the first thing she said - and though my initial reaction was 'that's a bit over the top', I now think it's a perfectly reasonable comparison to draw. It's not 'hatespeak' - 'I believe it's a really legitimate comparison. And not just visually - because let's face it, a crowd of All Black supporters would look pretty similar from a distance. But the rhetoric they are spouting - knowingly or not - is just all too familiar. I don't think people like MP Georgina Beyer make those comparisons lightly, and neither do I.

Remember what Fi wrote in her email (and probably on here) about Berlin being a kind of 'haven' for queers etc in the years leading up to the persecutions. I'm not trying to be alarmist, here, but that's how I feel about Wellington, that it's a haven. And yesterday, I got just a little taste of how that could change if we don't sanction people and organisations like Destiny.

But then again, I got kinda shouted down when I suggested that one of our local bookshops was acting in a racist way by accosting one of my Samoan friends for shoplifting - *twice* - when she wasn't. Sometimes I think our biggest enemy is our refusal to see things as they are - as ugly as they are, and as beautiful. NZers, man, we dumb *everything* down.

Incidentally...that bookshop...? The manager is *still* claiming my friend stole from her - is putting that out there in the community. But let's not be 'mean' to her.

With loving compassion and a wish for eternal unity...

x
Hinemoana

I dont have tv so depend on papers/radio/net for news:
this was an extraordinarily evocative article &
pictures -ka nui te pai.
I find fundamentalism of any kind (political,
religious) demeaning of our humanity - but it's been around since one hominoid decried another's innovative flintknapping as departing from The Received Wisdom.
Thanks for the work & creativity put into your
article.

The Hitler comparisons seem to give this Tamaki fellow more status and importance than that which he deserves. He's no Hitler - he's just a charismatic thug with a TV show and a simpleton following. All it will take is for someone to spike the "church's" water cooler with some good E and they'll all change sides. :)

I believe the Hitler comparisons need to be taken seriously, and I don't think equating Brian Tamaki with Hitler makes the counter protestors just as hateful. No one is suggesting that Tamaki has set up a gas chamber behind his mansion… but the concern is that this is the kind of behaviour that lead to the holocaust. I say again, what frightened me was not just the uniforms, the security, the salutes, the shouting… but the way decent people were going along with the messages of hate. Tamaki does not have a “simpleton following”. People who I talked to came across as intelligent, normal people. They were passionate, excited to be there. They believed that they were standing for their families, their children. They didn’t seem to realise the consequences for other people. Some of them had been told that queer people were living in lives of torment and misery... and they’d never met any out queer people to counter those ideas. Tamaki may be "just a charismatic thug" but he has enough charisma to persuade people to carry placards with slogans like "no prostitutes, no gays". Those kinds of messages aren't just objecting to behaviour, they are denying our very right to live.

I mean- sure 60 minutes and the coverage of the march was uinteresting.

But what about the Soprano's?
That was good t.V.

I miss Adrienne. I cant believe Christopher had her killed

Hi Fionnaigh - i think one of the best things about this whole thing is that people are talking about it - people who have been relatively uninterested about the whole civil union thing are now talking - today in the staff room at school i was proudly showing off the page four picture of my g/f donna and everyone's response was of disgust at the way Destiny Church has hijacked Christianity and made it seem like all Christians believe and support their stand - i don't think anyone of our staff who is a Christian supports Destiny - and we're all talking about it!

Thanks for the awesome report on the march - my DP is grateful no pictures of me appeared in the papers - see you at church sometime.

I can totally believe it. What else would he have done?

Fionnaigh, I'm really glad you talked to some of them, I would have been too chicken. And I truly believe that for a lot of them it is about ignorance.

Even though it may be ignorance, it is often ignorance that lets demagogues lead people t to fight against freedom.

The comparisons to Weimar Germany spring to mind awfully easily.

Thank you Fionnagh for your entire writeup. Also thanks for points like:

"Speaking of family... Tamaki was on 60 minutes saying that a family could only ever be a mother, a father and their children. Hellooooooo? Can someone please introduce the man to the concept of “whanau”?"

So right.

Utterly rank and disgusting carrying on by a bunch
of bigotted racist assholes and more disgusting
was the fact that school age children should
have been AT FUCKING SCHOOL not pretending to
be some kind of junior (If I must use this
term) NAZI brigade. I have heard their deranged
leader being interviewed on BFM and thought that
I was listening to a sting from the "Slightly
Silly Show." At least the likes of George
Carlin are funny. This guy is a pathetic loop.
And more to the point, what kind of image is
this low brow crap giving to the world about
Aoteroa ? Are we not to be admired as a tolerant
and caring society. Not with this 2 bit crap.
Send the "Leader" and his tribe to rot on White
Island just prior to the next major eruption.
Bury the lot of them and soon!!!!
Stuart (Central Auckland).
**NB: I am a New Zealand born "European" and
have much tolerance of all the peoples
from the Asia Pacific region. I am also
a little bit older than most of the B
listeners. I state my case and that of
any liberated sensible person.

I am a New Zealander living overseas - Germany, incidentally - and was horrified to read about the Destiny Church protest in Hard News and here. Thanks for the description of the day and the great photos. I guess one positive thing is that it gets people thinking and talking...not about the Sopranos, James!

You might want to know - I found your page from a link provided by Russel Brown on his Hard News site.

Interestingly, he says that a better comparison than that with Hitler, would be with Malcom X and the Nation of Islam.
My thoughts as well.

Of course Malcom X was known for demonstrating in favour of human rights, rather than against them.
But the Destiny church does have comparisons in its organisational nature to that of the early NOI.

Terrific photos.
I wish that I could have been in Wellington to join the counter-protest. Alas, I live in elsewhere.

PS Living in a country like Germany, and watching people here having to deal with the country's atrocious history, normally makes me appreciate coming from a more liberal and tolerant country like New Zealand. But the stories I´ve been reading lately about Jewish cemeteries being desecrated and hate-filled marches in black make me wonder how different things there really are. Strange times indeed, but I admire everyone who turned up for the counter-protest, even if it was distressing.

Great photos. We will not see that lot in the mainsrtream press!

Just came across this via RB's Public Address

Some more pix for you (you're in a few)...

http://turntable.typepad.com/photos/civil_union_protest/index.html

I disagree that with Jo's comments that Christianity was hijacked by this mob. It wasn't. What angers me is that Maori culture was hijacked under a type of fundamentalist christianity which was responsible for much of the destruction of Maori culture to begin with! That these Maori have assimilated such values is bad enough but that Maori culture is appropriated for this hateful display is ropeable.

Polynesian culture - pacific wide have never had the 'christian' attitudes towards homosexuality or people period that came with the invasion of the western world. Aroha - that love that is completely inclusive is totally alien to the type of Christianity that in my growing up, I despised and am heartsickened is displayed here. It is vile. It's like the enemy has triumped because that devil-christianity remade the people in it's sick narrow, superior image.

From a Christian point of view, though I no longer am one, love Christ despise the religion/s. There is NOTHING to support the notion in the Bible that Man + Woman + children is the family as dictated by God. There were many types of family -polygamy, polandry - polomory. Don't people ever read??
Even in Sodom and Gomorrah - the oft quoted 'example' of the wages of sin for those of homosexual persuasion, most Christians (usually because the lazy buggers never have read the Bible end to end) are not aware that the reason those people (as stated in the bible), got killed was not because of buggering each other - it was because of the lack of love that they had. AMAZING how priest and follower alike know so little about the things they preach. (And anyhoo - ranting off topic, what in heck was Lot thinking in offering up his daughters for rape? THIS is held up as an example of a righteous father?)

Frankly Maori culture traditionally has a far HUMAN bloody notion of what Aroha is about - keep you 'christian' twisted notions out of it. (This comment excludes all teachings given by Christ - who was as point of fact, not a christian - that religion invented after his death along with the name etc).

I notice in the newspapers Maori culture is copping it. And I hate that - that is your typical right wing fundamentalist christian palava. With an arsehole who is feeding dreams to people and he's very wrong.

"By this shall men know, ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another"
Quote - Author CHRIST.

All I can really add is that of having a gut feeling that it is only a matter of time before Mr Tamaki is caught leaving a brothel/"out-ed" in a homosexual liason or similar. ;-) Ya just know the dude is hiding something lol. Seen it all before with a number of high profile evangelist's.
Kia kaha

I came, I saw, I was horrified. Lovely write up Fi. The Destiny women above don't seem to be very happy for some reason. One incident I witnessed was another Destiny woman denying that any of the children from Destiny would be gay in the future "as they have had a decent christian up-bringing". The reply was "Well, I had a decent Christian up-bringing, using all the methods that christian groups say will prevent people being gay, and I'm still gay". Destiny woman looked confused and ran off.

Calum

Keep an eye on Maori TV folks: they're running a series on gay Maori over the next few weeks. That should provide some warm fuzzies to counteract Tamaki's cold pricklies.

about this...

"Please, stop praying for me. Knowing that people are praying for me to be “saved” from homosexuality is one of the creepiest things that has ever happened to me."

well i think i will pray for you to meet the woman of your dreams *grins* or man if that is what you so wish... terribly romantic i know but then being as i am a witch and we pray a little differently, go with what feels right i say!! *beams*

great article by the way, and way better than the mainstream press and TV, it was good to read about what the people were doing and i loved the photos.

*grins*
Polly

Thank you for all the work you have done to cover this event. I am developing content for a second year media studies lecture at VUW in October (last lecture of the year) - the focus will be Indymedia. I would like to involve Fionnaigh, Ann-Marie, Iona and Jordan - if you are in Wellington - I can tune into the Hard News site and involve Russell online. So if you would like to help me, please get in touch. Coffee at De Luxe? I work in Blair Street. Many thanks.
Nigel

By the way, see that large Israeli flag in the photo? I've been asking around the Wellington Jewish community. No one has any idea who was carrying it, so it wasn't any of our lot; and the consensus is that we don't support Tamaki, his church or his ideas, and resent our symbolic co-option by his supporters.

I'm a friend of a friend so linked to your site through theirs & just wanted to make a comment. I think Tamaki's lot purposely confuse the issues, I mean it's hard to say you aren't for family values? But to me at least their march seemed more anti-gay than pro-family.
Also, I work on the march route and their group looked less like the cosy, friendly, church group image they were portraying and more like a military operation. Especially that first wave of men.

As a straight, heterosexual guy, I am very supportive, of gay and lesbian issues for some of my cousins and friends are gay.

These people are Human to me. For me as a christain I leave the jugding to God and Him alone. We are on earth to live, respect and enjoy our own individual pursuit of happiness.

At the end of our days, I as christain will be, like everyone else, will be jugded by God, and thank him that another man will not be judging me.

I wish all of us, gay, lesbian and straight people a happy and rewarding life here on planet Earth, till we all meet again in heaven.

Soifua
Mea'ole

Cool report.

well done.

murray

Kia Ora,
I'm a 37yr old Maori female, mostly heterosexual, single mother & had sexual liaisons with the same sex, done absolutely everything you can imagine during the course of my life and cannot even imagine my Creator, Io, God not being there 24-7 for me, yet according to Tamaki, I'm a pervert! Then his followers, like lambs to the slaughter...

How dare he mention that rally with the 'Hikoi'in the same sentence, for the Foreshore and Seabed. I was on that hikoi and for that large amount of people present, not once did I feel any anger or hate come from us, it was sadness.

I know heaps of his Whanau who cringe at the mention of his name. They say, 'If it makes some people happy...oh well, snigger, snigger, but he's raking in the cash".

Does he think that if I ask for God to surround me in love, that because I have had lesbian sex, like being a single mother and have done other naughty things in my life and still do a bit, that God will not listen to me? Well Brian Tamaki, you're wrong. So there ya go, trot off on your merry, little rich way with your big gold jewellery shoved up your crack because you've been exposed! Next whacko preacher preaching crap please and not a Maori one because that's not our culture he's spouting. Mauri Ora and keep up the informative reporting.

Calm down please
Did somebody get killed,i must of missed that
All that happened was some people got together and expressed their opinion.
If you were fearful of being there on Monday, what do you think its going be like when you stand before the living God.Think about it
You have a choice just the same as me.
Jesus said go sin no more to the people
It was not just a good idea it was a command

No one got killed, but they were sworn at, spat on and shoved. It seems you missed that.

And Jesus also said:
- "Judge not, lest ye be judged"
- "Let him among you who is without sin cast the first stone"
- "Blessed are the meek in spirit"
- "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars"
- "Love thy neighbour as thyself"

You guys seem pretty selective about which words of Jesus you want to believe.

Great photos - I came over here via another stonesoup blog, but actually found out about the counter-protest on your site via Google a couple of weeks ago. Thanks for being incredibly eloquent about such a strange day... I only got teary when the rainbow-march showed up as it was such a lovely thing to see - when Destiny showed up I got more angry than sad. Although I wish I'd worn more colour - it being freezing, and my winter coat being black, I got mistaken for one of the fundies more than once, and felt quite out of place at the end of it as I didn't seem to fit into either group and the folks I know had gone home. But it was good to have been there :-).

Tamakis bunch were violent, several people were assulted and the police were no where to been seen.

Sapranos was a good episode, and what did you expect Chris to do after seeing the white trash with the mullet??

I am living in a straight relationship with two children, have never been gay, I havent even been to a protest before. This guy Tamaki is just another loser who is trying to denigrate a section of the population who he thinks that is not superior to his Fundy right wing way of life. If he comes to Auckland I will go in the alternative march no questions asked - I fuckin hate bigots.

Hi Fi, this is the best article about the Destiny march that I have seen. Whilst I am sympathetic to your position, my faith in the God of the Bible does not condone homosexual behaviour, and I believe that normalizing sin is ultimately unhealthy for our society.

In many ways, Destiny does not reflect the ideals of Christianity, but in this issue their position is thoroughly orthodox. Marriage is an institution that should not be desecrated so thoughtlessly.

Vilifying the messenger and hysterical articles seem to be the level of debate from the homosexual crusaders. How do you feel about stirring up prejudice, fear, and intolerance towards Christians?

Hey

Good coverage and i am glad people were there to put these nutters in their place.

Just a point, i am right wing from the point of economics, so please stop making an us and them situation assuming that all right wing people are against the civil union bill and hate gay people etc.

You are thinking of fundamentalist conservatives, just because they are right wing does not make them the same as people like me.

i am closer to a right wing liberal, right wing on economics, liberal on personal freedoms andrights etc.

just a small point, but i don;t like being boxed in and compared to those freaks.

AL

Just a few comments here...

To whoever made this page: nice coverage, nice pictures, nice job.

To whoever made the "Malcolm X" analogy: I don't think this is nearly as accurate as the Nazi comparisons...these people are right-wing assholes; Malcolm X was not.

And to the hateful "homosexuality is a sin" christians who've added a couple of posts down here near the end:

"Marriage is an institution that should not be desecrated so thoughtlessly."
-- Nonsense. Marriage is a patriarchal institution that should be desecrated in wahtever manner possible. Instead of civil unions for us queehs, I think we should get rid of legal marriage for you breeders.

"How do you feel about stirring up prejudice, fear, and intolerance towards Christians?"
-- not nearly enough of this, for my taste. They've earned it.

careful Joanne, you are dragging a bunch of people into your negativity who support this.

Firstly right wing comment, maybe they are just assholes or conservative assholes. by assuming that they are all right wing, you insult those of us who are right wing and support you.

secondly, marriage etc. i am a married straight guy, who absolutely totally agrees with the civil union bill for whomever wants to use it. so claiming that my marriage is some patriarchal (god i hate that word, so stupid) conspiracy and then saying that all of us 'breeders' should lose the right to be married, loses you our support as well.

Whenever a fringe of society wants to get a voice across the moment you go crazy and start making outlandish claims you lose support of the majority because you include them in your attacks.

Just look at tamaki and co, they are so far out there its not funny, and their views are as well. they are against gay people, and instead of uniting all religious people behind their views they have alienated a bunch of them by being nuts and making sweeping stupid statements.

Don;t fall for the same mistake, attack them (destiny church) fine, but don;t attack the people supporting you, just becuase they don;t happen to be exactly the same as you.

Right wing, married, liberal, and for the civil union bill, and likely not the only one.

my boyfriend talked to the guy with the israeli flag. apperantly he is a christian who thinks that because jesus was jewish all christians are therefore jews, that is why he was waving the israeli flag around at a march also suported by the national front. he got into an argument with a jewish man - son of an israeli - who was marching in support of civil unions and was obviously a bit offended at this use of the flag. after all, tamaki is following in the traditions of the same people who burned our ancestors at the stake.

You rock!

These people are scary, and their non-tolerance shouldn't be tolerated (excuse the irony).

I'm all for free speech, but not when it's hate speech.

I am from Destiny
I was there.

Thank you for pointing out that our children were not hateful.
Most of them were smiling.

We do not hate gay people.

"We have nothing against gay people, We just dont like what they do."

One thing I know about big public events is that you always get a bunch of people who think its funny to pretend they are with the cause and then act like idiots to bring the cause into disrepute. Its blind to pretend this doesn't happen to both sides of this issue, so we can't say for certain that the Destiny people did everything attributed to them.
Another thing that interested me from reading these postings is that everybody is fervently protesting that their veiw is the right veiw, gay or straight! very passionately, that leads me to wonder if I wanted to live without being presented with the idea that a gay life style is a perfectly normal choice, do you have the right to deny me that desire? likewise do I have the right to deny you the choice to live a gay lifestyle? I think not,I don't think me saying "stop it!" or you saying "do it!" will have any effect on the other whatsoever! so I believe that it is wiser to appeal to a higher authority than my opinion or your opinion of what is "right" The quote used on placards in Wellington is quite fitting "Judge not lest you be judged" I believe that its not my place to judge gay people, but to proclaim the truth, that we ALL have rebelled against God and fall short of His perfect plan, but that God loves ALL people so much that He made a way for us to return to Him, that's gay or straight! Now can you let me believe what I believe or will you judge me "wrong"? or shall we just leave it until we die and see who is right...?

Dear, dear, dear Fionnaigh.
Thank you.
Sometimes it's hard studying in Dunedin where the political side of life is pushed to the backburner by the rugby heads.
An online friend, David, gave me the link, and I've been reading on that odd trampoline of joy and despair that everyone facing this issue has been.

I enjoyed your commentary, my contribution to the debate has been meagre, but if you wish you can check it out here ---> http://worddistillery.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=67010972&f=75010882&m=1950002262&r=1950002262#1950002262

The site is operated by some mates of mine in the states, and has some decent writing on it, so feel free to become a contributor if you'd like (and have time). I, for one, would love to read more from you.

Matty.

Great report Fi. People's rights to express views need to be defended, but if their views are likely to cause harm and their mode of expression reeks of violence we need to comment.

For "destiny" members: wouldn't quiet conversations without the black shirts, slogans, fists and spitting more effectively represent a Christian view?

BRO HONESTLY CUZ

THE STUFF YOU SAID WERE PRETTY MUCH WRONG I WAS THERE WHEN THE MARCH WAS ON AND FRANKLY YOU GUYS WERE THE ONES SPITTING AND BEING VIOLENT.AND I SAW KIDS GETTING EGGS CHUCKED AT THEM . WOW SO MUCH FOR TREATING EVERYONE EQUAL.ALSO ANOTHER THING THAT MADE LAUGH WAS CALLING PASTOR BRIAN TAMAKI HITLER. THATS PRETTY SAD HE'S DOING WHAT HE BELIEVES IN. AND IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE THAT TRUE...."GOD LOVES EVERYONE"..... IT ALSO SAYS "WE DO NOT FIGHT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD , BUT AGAINST EVILSPIRITS AND PRINCIPALITIES".... AND BY THE WAY THE WHOLE NAZI THING COME ON WHAT BIZZARE THINKING IS THAT?."VALUES MATTER" ALSO TRUE. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU READ THE BIBLE BUT BASICALLY IM GONNA SPRAY IT IN YOUR FACES FOR IT SAYS IN ROMANS 1:16 "FOR I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, FOR IT IS THE POWER ONTO SALVATION" AND IM NOT ASHAMED SO HERE IT IS READ GENESIS CHAPTER 18 IT TELLS THE STORY ON HOW GOD DOES NOT APPROVE OF HIS PEOPLE BEING HOMOSEXUAL.GOD ENDED UP RAINING BURNING SULPHER ON THE PEOPLE OF SODOM(THE HOMOSEXUAL SPIRIT CITY). YOU KNOW WHAT I WAS WEARING AN ENOUGH IS ENOUGH SHIRT AND PASTOR BRIAN TAMAKI IS A GREAT MAN AND INSPIRITAIONAL LEADER. a)MARRIAGE WAS CREATED FROM GOD. WHO CREATED ADAM AND "EVE" NOT STEVE b)YOU CAN'T TOUCH WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED HOW DARE YOU THINK LIKE AND c) MARRIAGE IA A COVENANT BEFORE GOD BETWEEN A "MAN AND A "WOMAN".A THING WITH YOU GUYS IS YOU GOTTA THINK OF THE NEXT GENERATION. THE NEXT GENERATIONS EITHER BLESSED OR CURSED. DECISIONS MADE TODAY ARE GONNA AFFECT TOMORROW. AS APART OF THE DESTINY CHURCH SIDE OF THE MARCH I THINK IF GOD SAID IT WAS OK FOR HOMOS CLEARLY SAID IN THE BIBLE THEN I'LL THINK I'LL CHANGE MY MIND BUT THERES NONE IN THERE NO VERSE,SCRIPTURE. FOR ALL THE GAY'S OUT THERE TRASHING MY PASTOR LIKE THAT.I REALLY THINK U SHOULD JUST GO HOME AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR SAYING. RESPECT IS A GOOD THINK TO START THINKING ABOUT. JUST LOVED SAYING MY BIT AND IF U WANNA GO HARD AT ME BRING IT x40
REMEMBER "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" OF THE GOVERMENTS DECISIONS. JUST A LITTLE TONGUE IN CHEEK COMEDY DON'T CRY ABOUT THIS JOKE READY......"WE GOTTA LEARN FROM THE PAST/ANDWORK FOR THE FUTURE/AND DONT B A SLAVE TO NO GAY RULER

HAHAHAHA (DON'T TAKE IT 2 DA HEART MAN!!!!)

LOVE YA HEAPS
WAZZUP

sup just want to say that i am a member from Destiny and i just want to say that we are not haters. Dont get us wrong we love u and ur people its just your spirit we dont like.

We are standing up for tha next generation and we dont want them thinking that its alright to be a gay or a lesbian coz its not and its not normal coz God created adam and eve not adam and steve. So ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

I am all set to read what's comes next. keep up the good work!!

Of course, the interesting thing with quoting the Bible is the historical fact that much of what we read in today's Bible was 'tuned' by the early churches & politicians to suit their own political agenda's. For example, the original hebrew meaning of the word "virgin" was "unmarried woman", and in the days of King Herod etc, "virgins" had children all the time. In fact, in some religious sects (the Essenes, from memory?) it was encouraged, purely to self-fulfil the various prophesies regarding the saviour being born of a virgin. Not that that's relevant here, but you get the point. This kind of textual manipulation of the scriptures (especially the New Testament) is well researched and has, believe it or not, been openly accepted by the higher ranks of the various churches for a century or so now. However, for reasons best left to conjecture, this awareness is generally not disseminated down to the congregation.

Looking at the Bible as we know it though - I do know, as having read it, that the Bible suggests that homosexual behaviour is bad – the story of the city of Sodom, etc. It also states, in one of Paul's letters, that "women should not wear hats nor should they speak in church". I would hope we all agree that those comments are perhaps not so relevant to today’s society. So the question is raised - what other "recommendations" in the Bible are not so relevant?

To explain, it’s my understanding that the statements above – women not speaking in church, not wearing hats, etc – were made to address particular issues that Paul’s various churches faced. The women not speaking thing. When churches are small they did then and still do meet in member’s houses. Two thousand years ago, in early Christian times it was customary for only the men to attend the church service, and the women were in another part of the building looking after children, and so on. Houses tended to be only one or two rooms, and so when the church groups met, both men and women were generally in the same room. Having the women talk was a distraction to the men trying to study, hence the instruction for women not to speak. The hats – a woman caught guilty of prostitution had her head shaved, and so would wear a hat to hide her shame and enable her to blend in with all the other women. The wearing of hats being a common custom amongst shaven and non-shaven alike. Paul instructed the women not to wear hats at all so it was easy to identify and single out the woman – aka the prostitute – who did. So Paul’s statements were for specific issues in specific situations. I would suggest that many of Paul’s comments weren’t supposed to be blanket statements.

So – where does this leave us? In a debate about our moral values, it seems that we cannot trust the Bible to give solid guidance quite as much as some would have us believe. To sanctimoniously quote from it is, perhaps, not particularly useful. Perhaps we should look at trying to understand the underlying message of what the Christian faith is all about – the underlying ‘tone’ of the Bible. Be nice to one another, don’t be jealous of other people’s possessions, and (the hard one) don’t be arrogant in your views. How this all relates to the Civil Union Bill issue? I have my views, but I think I’ve preached enough for now. We have to make our own choices – but we have a responsibility to make intelligent informed choices instead of being led like an adoring puppy by strong charisma. That means we have to learn more about an issue than what one organisation would necessarily tell us, or have us believe as fact. Particularly if that organisation isn’t necessarily impartial.

On a completely different tack, the scientific approach. Here’s a link to a blog by Russell Brown - http://www.publicaddress.net/default,1432.sm. In this one, he quotes the findings of Associate Professor Michael Dunne of the School of Public Health at the Queensland University of Technology, after the good Professor Dunne was mis-quoted by Dr Neil Whitehead. Neil Whitehead is a strong opponent of the Civil Union bill, and has a submission, misquotes and all, before the select committee.

“Dr Whitehead has argued that it is the responsibility of society to limit the environment that may be conducive to people who have this predisposition to ultimately "become gay or lesbian". Thus, he postulates that homosexual civil unions would be conducive to such an environment. It is precisely here that his argument becomes devoid of any scientific basis, because of one key point. To date, there has never been a study that has convincingly demonstrated that any particular social or environmental influence (including social policy) "promotes" or is conducive to the development of homosexual orientation. Not one.”

Hmmm…

I’m sure I’ll get flamed to pieces for all this, and that’s fine. I would hope though that some of those flames are based on intelligent debate, and aren’t just focused around abuse. I can’t be bothered with responding to that.

Fionnaigh, thank you for your insights and the “on-the-spot” coverage. For those of us who weren’t in Wellington and have only seen coverage through TV and the likes of this website, it seemed an almost surreal experience.

Darren.

Darren, there are a couple of articles at 'Christianity Today' that neatly refute your revisionist theories.

"What God Hath Not Joined"
"Thirteen Bad Arguments for Same-Sex Marriage"

Try again:
Thirteen Bad Arguments for Same-Sex Marriage:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/009/18.51.html

What God Hath Not Joined
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/009/11.36.html

These are from a Biblical perspective. I have not tried to present a defense of the Bible here, but it goes without saying that the great majority of Christian churches affirm that the Bible is indeed God's Word to humanity, and trustworthy in all matters of faith and life.

some other recommendations:

The Maxim institute makes some compelling arguments against innovations in family values. Some people have tried to discredit them by linking them to right wing American conspiracies, or the flamebait destiny Church. While motivated by christian values, they do not quote the Bible at all. They only use social, economic, philosophical or legal arguments, and their sources are highly reputable.

Vigilancematters.com has a lot of discussion of the same-sex marrige debate in the USA (can be quite obnoxious), and the author digs out some interesting resources.

Id like to know exactly what gays 'do'that Destiny church does not like. If heterosexual people 'do' the same, will they also be persecuted?. But what is the exact definition of the thing that gays 'do'...

You were born a man...A MAN!! You have gifting and talents to produce another child that can only be perfomed by a women...A WOMEN! So why do you want to shag other guys up the rear-end?
That act is evil and dishonor's God. If He wanted you to have sex with another male, God would have created steve instead of eve.....Yes God loves everyone but you figure out why He created man AND Women. We are not homophobic...thats just a title of some one's point of view that has now snowballed out of control. We love you..Yes, and I can prove it to you if you let me.
Sodomy is an act of perversion...One day when you have children of your own, you will realise how sick and perverted the world has become...I would'nt want to see you children being sodomised by a grown man...hmmm? Were you not kept safe at one stage?...The next generation wont have the same choices like you and I.

If you beleive in God...and you reckon that God loves all pepole...than do you beleive that satan exist too? Do you not consider that the love you perform is not of God but of satan?

THAT IS WHO I HATE....satan!! Not the people. The two major forces fighting for power right now is between darkness and light..Are you that blind?? Can you not see what is happening in you own nation and the world?
If you are a man...than act like one! Do be sombody you're really not. You're only fooling yourself.

Just so you know - as you would have if you'd bothered to do any research - most gays I've spoken with don't "shag other guys up the rear-end", as you put it. Some do - but the ratio's probably the same as heterosexual married couples who engage in anal sex. As Matt M has asked - would those couples, who it would seem are normal by your definition, be persecuted?

Hi, my name is Sean and I'm a student at Wellington High School where Destiny hold their meetings. I am also the guy pictured holding the sign I made stating "hitler called, he wants a shirt."
It took me days to figure out the best way to make my statement without actually attacking anyone. My sign was not intedned to assault the Destiny church, just their method of protest. The monotony of their garb and speech supported my claim that they were a reincarnated hitler youth, along with their inclusion of the National Front, a Nazi group if ever there was one.
These people claim not to hate yet they are trying to impose their will on others. What will they do if their child grows up gay? Dispossess them? Kill them? Which reminds me, Tamaki insisted that children in single parent and gay couple families are more likely to be beaten. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the only time I've ever heard of a child being beaten to death was in a two parent, hetero couple who beat their child to death with a fanbelt. I have never heard of a gay couple beating their child.
On the way back to school after the protest, I was asked many times by Destiny people what my sign meant, I told them "It's comparing your shirts to those of the Hitler youth." I was then given a lecture about how they had once been scoundrels, drugs, sex, etc. But then they learnt to fear god. Fear in god is a powerful thing. So I've been told. I am not afraid of god. I am not afraid of Destiny church. I am not afraid to stand up for what I believe is right. Most of all, I am not afraid of cowards who hide themselves in a sea of conformity yet when alone run like scared puppies.
Anyone who wishes to object, feel free to E-mail me.
Oh and Destiny, get the hell out of my school :)

All this "marriage is a covenant before god between a man and a woman" stuff is starting to get to me. Has anyone noticed that civil unions are not marriage? They're not religious, full stop. A civil union would merely be a recognisation by the government that two people were a 'single unit' if you will. Christianity doesn't enter into the equation at all. In fact, a civil union would be an alternative to marriage for heterosexual couples who did not like the religious aspect of marriage.

I was under the impression that the whole civil union thing was designed to give people who chose to enter same sex relationships the same rights under law (for things like 'next of kin' and divorce, and so on) as those who entered into marriage. I haven't exactly done much research into it - but that was the impression I received from what I've read about it.

I believe in accepting humanity... For what it is. I have been brought up in a primarily single parent family, and have been taught to never discriminate, so while I would try to never judge someone simply based on their skin colour, sexual preferances or wealth, I find it hard to form any real opinions on the Destiny Chruch, to me, as a whole, Destiny's uniform and unenlightened mass simply scares me, I wish I could understand why they think the way they do. I did attend the march, in support of freedom, and I did join in the national anthem.

New Zealand as a whole generally has a very open minded, accepting nature, and I hope this can be restored, with no more pain to either party.

Thankyou - Genevieve

No offense meant by this sean, but as a fellow WHS student I am sure you will be able to understand my view: I feel like the 'hitler' and 'nazi' angle that many of the anti-destiny protestors had was slightly out of place. While yes, the destiny marchers did wear uniforms and shout slogans and so forth - they did not have the organised, energetic magnetism that the Nuremberg rallies were so famous for. Making reference to the Hitlerjugend (hitler youth) in that regard is like saying that 'everyone who wears eyeliner is a goth'.

Now, I'm not supporting destiny (far from it) - but I believe there could have been a better way to get your message across. Resorting to references to National Socialism and the Nazi party make the pro-civil union protestors appear uncouth, and degraded the message they were trying to promote.

Yes Destiny parents will disown their gay and lesbian children. Yes Destiny parents will trash their self-esteem, Yes Destiny parents will confuse their moral compasses. The reason? Because Destiny parents understand the world in terms of black and white - as they testified to one correspondent above they were once wrong, and now they are right - and they are not willing or not able to investigate the grey areas. And grey areas are found in the investigations one makes into the INTERPRETATIONS and HISTORICAL REPRESENTATIONS of the words of that infamous book, the Bible. I can see many angles to the issues arising from the Destiny march. From a PR perspective, it wasn't a great move to wear black shirts and sharkies and do a war dance appropriated from another culture to show your might. That kind of malarky alienates a large number of diverse groups. From a group behaviour framework (I have a couple of degrees in psychology), I understood the reasons why people have become members of Destiny, and the kinds of ideas they had been indoctrinated with to get the to display their oddly affect-muted demeanours (except for those being actively facetious), from the perspective of an individual, I can understand who emotionally aroused they must have felt - a combination of anger, righteousness, satisfaction and confusion - they thought they were doing the right thing, a good thing, and then as some correspondents above discovered, Destiny members had never actually met proud and happy-to-be-out homosexuals before (perhaps because they only know those in "reparative" therapy?). From the perspective of a proud and happy-to-be-out lesbian, I coudl still see all of these views, for being homosexual doesn't actually close you off from understanding other people's viewpoints, it just makes stomaching ignorance a weeny bit difficult. From a political perspective, I know that the distress I felt watching these people was the price I pay to live in a democratic country who will (unfortunately) let these people congregate and say such ridiculous things under the guise of religiosity. And that I find is the hardest thing about this march, is that personal, group, political, religious and prejudice issues were all mixed up, each vying to be the winner. From the perspective of a person who prizes knowledge, I lament that this is not the value that Destiny are passing on to their children. Why else would they have spelling mistakes in their banners, and why else would they unknowingly use the title of a 70's gay rights song as their slogan?

take heart all you people like me - this blog is an electonic reminder - YOU ARE NOT ALONE

And you might wonder why I have shared my thoughts with you weeks after the march - it is because I am still hurting.

And typically, I've got typos in my rant - no spell check!!! lol

v

Wonderful article Fi.

I presume the Iona and Ann-Marie are the two who I think they are. Hiya!

The main thing that strikes me about the responses here is the inarticulate nature of the Destiny supporters. They claim not to hate, but the very nature of their response - the capitals, the exclamations, the language - screams hatred - or at least extreme anger.

Like Fiona, I agree with some of the views that Destiny holds. But the frenzy that Mr Tamaki works up in his people is just weird. What I really fail to understand is this: What is it about them that is so insecure that they cannot handle other people having views and lifestyles that are different from theirs? Is their way of life so fragile that someone else having "evil" ways will affect them? After all, they are righteous, upstanding, good people. They have a strength of spirit. They have God inside them. How can evil harm them or anyone under their care?

Brian Tamaki's interview with that evil Kim Hill was interesting. He was unable to provide a coherent, sensible response to any of the questions she asked. He could not provide an answer to any of the questions raised here - just what is it you are so afraid of? Why shouldn't "they" be allowed to live their lives they way they choose to?

Gravey

This is from a gay Christian . . .

Love all people. God told/tells us to love our enemies.

But Jeremy, who are the enemies of Christians in New Zealand? Who are the enemies of Destiny Church? It seems to me that I have been labelled an enemy without actively hurting these people. I'm sorry, I'm just so confused by their response to who they think I am.....?

I am in committed,loving relationship,we have been living together for a 5 years.
It's nobody elses business what i do in my own bedroom , were both consenting adults.
I just cant understand why i cant marry my CAT,we are so close.
Those people are so bigoted,fundamental, telling me who can marry or not
LOVE DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE and neither should the law
I love my Cat

Thank you for the great photos from the 23rd August Enough is Enough as i forgot my camera
and i would love to show my daughter the day her father and mother made a stand to secure her future,I personally dont want her growing up in a society of God haters because we are too stubborn to hear what God has to say about the family and a nation,that day was a day to remember I love Pastor Brian and Destiny church and I thank God for a man that says what needs to be said Destiny NZ gets my vote.The Bible says to Love God is to hate Evil, not people we did not make a stand against people but against an evil that wants to wreck peoples lives we stood for somthing greater and that is the future generation, homosexuality is no different to adultry,idoltry,lying,stealing etc......I am not against people but an evil that wants to use people to rob,kill and destroy people,Pastor Brian just wants all the families of the earth to be blessed this is still the covanant promise of God.

Enough is indeed enough. We have enough problems without DC's nonsense. I am bi by nature, celibate by choice... MY choice, which is a word that seems to be foreign to Destiny Clowns (or the leader(s) thereof). Stand up for your right to be human and the right to be who you are.

I don't understand... In Genesis yes, it said homosexuality was an abomination. In Exodus, it condones selling your daughter into slavery. In another book (believe it is Leviticus) it states that men who cut their hair should be killed... In the New Testament, Jesus gave a new commandment, a law to over ride all the laws that came before... Love one another as I have loved you... So where is the tolerance? And where is the love? Why cant we all just get along?

http://www.xtra.co.nz/broadband/0,,10979-3802109-300,00.html

"It was a rally to announce the Destiny Church movement political candidates for the next election, but the visiting daughter of murdered civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jnr stole the show."

Good on Bernice King. They now have my support

Dear god. If his daughter is correct, I just lost a hell of a lot of respect for Martin Luthor King. Racist or Homophobe, regardless of what you are, you are still not a true person.

Dear Fionnagh

Thank you for an interesting account and some great photos. You write; "A lot of them didn't actually seem to realise that their shouts were directed at us. They didn’t seem to associate their anger with me - the real live flesh and blood person standing in their midst feeling terrified, crying.
That was what scared me most."
Firstly, most of us were not angry, that was a media lie & endlessly repeating it won't make it true. Secondly, our protest was NOT aimed at you but at the government, that's why we were at parliament, We organised the protest, you were a counter-protester, not visa versa. Thirdly; were you "terrified crying"??? hard to believe! I SAW you, looking confident & cheerful near the haka party surrounded by hundreds of us "enough-is-enoughers" who just ignored you, as we did to other counter protesters who moved in our midst. Most of us were wary of interacting with the counter-protesters because we didn't want strife. Please remember that there were many witnesses there. Most of the counter-protesters who claimed to be spat upon and abused are quite simply liars, and the lies, vilification and hysteria that I heard from the media after the march did then make me a bit angry. Why do people including even ministers of God feel entitled to tell fibs about people that they disagree with?
The "enough is enough" message was clear. We came to confront the government about trends in legislation that undermine the family (not just the CU & Rel bills)and to support biblical values.
I WILL put in a prayer for you even if it freaks you out (ask yourself why).
Best wishes, and love the socks.
Robert Woods